Yes, you did justice to the match by writing this wonderful summary. My take is take that if Wimbledon let go of their curfew rule just for this one match, and let it continue, it would surely be recognised as the greatest match ever played.
I dropped everything to read this when I got the notification. Let this be an indication of how good you write. Well done and thanks 👏🏽👏🏽
I'm really glad you think so, Sanjeet! Thanks for the kind words. I don't know if anything could eclipse the 2008 Wimbledon final in the eyes of the public (and personally, I don't think this match was quite as good as the 2009 Australian Open semi), but I largely agree with you -- this match would get so much more recognition had it not been cut in half. Imagine if it had been the first semifinal and the same crowd at seen the whole match instead of being forced to sit through 6.5 hours of servebotting. Ah well. It's nice that at least those who have seen the match tend to recognize how special it was. Thanks again!
Great points made, and a great discussion to be had about what a "great match" entails - I think your argument about consistent quality is the right one.. However, I think it's two overlapping "sliders" so to say - one is match quality, the other is drama (with a case to be had that "The Stakes" is a subgroup of drama). If a match is super quality, but lacking drama (rare case, but happens!) - sucks. If a match is all drama, no quality - sucks (happens quite often). It's in that overlap where the magic happens - as you say, it has to be "cinematic" (not really a part of the Drama slider but let's say so).
I was surprised to find that I find the drama-filled matches more entertaining than ones predicated on sheer quality - as someone that values quality of play over everything else. I'd argue that a match in which one player gets blown out in set 1 (Novak Wawrinka 2013) but goes in 5 sets of action packed madness is more impactful than certain other matches with sustained excellence all the way (but not the panache!)
All this said, this match is easily one of the best ever and I stand by everything you wrote here - I don't really know or understand why it doesn't get the credit it deserves, and why it doesn't linger in many tennis-heads nor is oft written about... Espec, as you've pointed out, considering what turning point it was for Djokovic and it's overal significance.
PS: Honorable mention 1. goes to Fed Roddick 2009 - I was GUTTED for Roddick then, so it might have skewed my perception of the match but I do remember being astounded by the quality at times.... I think memory plays tricks on one, but unlike many other matches this one did stay with me.
Honorable mention 2 is Santoro vs Clement; this one is a more unorthodox one and the argument for sustained excellence completely falls apart here.... But it was the longest match ever for a long time, only beat by Isner-Anderson (which it destroys in term of quality by a country mile) https://youtu.be/WbyevXnZTes
Finally, I'd be remiss not to mention one of my fav players of all time doing a comeback against the great Fed (even if the match is not really talked about in Greatest Match conversations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGamKdkzb6c
Such great points on match quality, especially stakes being a part of drama. I'm with you at times on the entertainment value of drama vs. quality; if the match finishes at an incredible level, I don't care too much what happened at the start. I think that goes for most people, too -- by the end of the 2012 AO final and even the 2021 RG SF, people had forgotten all about the slow parts. When it comes to ranking GOAT matches, though, I gotta consider both the ups and the downs :). Could be interesting to rank "most entertaining Djokovic-Nadal matches" and see if that contrasts with best.
Love the matches you linked to, particularly Nadal-Thiem. I stayed up until 2:30 am to watch that one and couldn't believe my eyes. Pretty similar flow to Djokovic-Wawrinka AO 2013, really -- loser blows out winner in set one, then the last four sets are all-out war and the winner takes three of those four.
Federer-Roddick is a great one -- I feel like it's more of an "insane" match than a "super high-quality" one, but I haven't watched it all the way through in a while. I'll never forget watching the extended highlights early on in my time as a tennis fan and losing my mind as Federer won those six straight points to rescue the second-set tiebreak. That's a big reason why I became such a big fan of his early on.
Thanks for reading, man, and for the comment -- takes me to those Changeover comment sections.
Great summary of one of the greatest matches. However, I do think looking at statistics may not tell the whole picture for a match, as there have been plenty of other superb matches in which there were more unforced errors than winners, such as the 2005 Rome final between Coria and Nadal and the 2006 Rome final between Nadal and Federer. The eye test matters a lot, and along with the consistency, attack-defense, amongst others. I think a good place to look at the greatness of matches as a whole would be by a player named Waspsting on Men's Tennis Warehouse Forum. Here's some links of theirs. He notes that the 2012 Australian Open final was the toughest of the pairs matches and that very possibly it could be the greatest match ever played. While the match is scrutinized for its long time, the 2009 Madrid semifinal should be as well, as it seems to actually be a highly overrated match by a report. Good to check out, and great report!
Thanks John! I hear you on statistics, but I think context can help explain this. Like you said, the 2005 and 2006 Rome finals were phenomenal despite the winners-UFE ratio, two five-setters that started fast and never slowed. But the 2012 Australian Open final simply wasn't a match like that -- Djokovic was poor in the first set, Nadal was poor for most of the next two. If you'd polled the audience after the third set of that match on whether we'd still talk about it 12 years later, I would bet that many would say no. You can see it in the match report you linked to: "Djokovic sluggish [early]"; "Nadal passive [in sets two and three]". The last two sets were unbelievable, but the match was like a very good show with a superb finale -- I rank shows that were superb all the way through a little higher. Thanks for the links -- great statistical breakdowns. I just happen to disagree on the relative greatness of the 2012 AO final. Don't get me wrong, it was great, but the 2018 Wimbledon final had almost all of the drama and much more quality.
Great response! In the end, all matches are relative to the own viewer's opinions and experience, as some like the contrasting styles or similar ones such as the defensive grueling rallies of Nadal and Djokovic and their countless matches. Would you still consider the 2012 Australian Open final to be the most physical, brutal/ and or athletic match in tennis history?
Absolutely. That match might beat all the others just for sheer insanity at the end -- I couldn't believe what they were doing when they were so tired. It made no sense how the rallies got better as they fatigued. You might have caught it already, but I went longer on that match back in Chapter 9 - https://thegoldenrivalry.substack.com/p/chapter-9-history
Yes, you did justice to the match by writing this wonderful summary. My take is take that if Wimbledon let go of their curfew rule just for this one match, and let it continue, it would surely be recognised as the greatest match ever played.
I dropped everything to read this when I got the notification. Let this be an indication of how good you write. Well done and thanks 👏🏽👏🏽
I'm really glad you think so, Sanjeet! Thanks for the kind words. I don't know if anything could eclipse the 2008 Wimbledon final in the eyes of the public (and personally, I don't think this match was quite as good as the 2009 Australian Open semi), but I largely agree with you -- this match would get so much more recognition had it not been cut in half. Imagine if it had been the first semifinal and the same crowd at seen the whole match instead of being forced to sit through 6.5 hours of servebotting. Ah well. It's nice that at least those who have seen the match tend to recognize how special it was. Thanks again!
I was waiting on this one :)
Great points made, and a great discussion to be had about what a "great match" entails - I think your argument about consistent quality is the right one.. However, I think it's two overlapping "sliders" so to say - one is match quality, the other is drama (with a case to be had that "The Stakes" is a subgroup of drama). If a match is super quality, but lacking drama (rare case, but happens!) - sucks. If a match is all drama, no quality - sucks (happens quite often). It's in that overlap where the magic happens - as you say, it has to be "cinematic" (not really a part of the Drama slider but let's say so).
I was surprised to find that I find the drama-filled matches more entertaining than ones predicated on sheer quality - as someone that values quality of play over everything else. I'd argue that a match in which one player gets blown out in set 1 (Novak Wawrinka 2013) but goes in 5 sets of action packed madness is more impactful than certain other matches with sustained excellence all the way (but not the panache!)
All this said, this match is easily one of the best ever and I stand by everything you wrote here - I don't really know or understand why it doesn't get the credit it deserves, and why it doesn't linger in many tennis-heads nor is oft written about... Espec, as you've pointed out, considering what turning point it was for Djokovic and it's overal significance.
PS: Honorable mention 1. goes to Fed Roddick 2009 - I was GUTTED for Roddick then, so it might have skewed my perception of the match but I do remember being astounded by the quality at times.... I think memory plays tricks on one, but unlike many other matches this one did stay with me.
Honorable mention 2 is Santoro vs Clement; this one is a more unorthodox one and the argument for sustained excellence completely falls apart here.... But it was the longest match ever for a long time, only beat by Isner-Anderson (which it destroys in term of quality by a country mile) https://youtu.be/WbyevXnZTes
Finally, I'd be remiss not to mention one of my fav players of all time doing a comeback against the great Fed (even if the match is not really talked about in Greatest Match conversations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGamKdkzb6c
OK I lied, TWO more! I miss both of these players greatly but
Nadal VS Thiem US Open https://youtu.be/QrJPXJ03Gdg
Delpo VS Cilic - https://youtu.be/4aoX69YfQGA - This is a Davis Cup match so its played in totally different conditions, but stillll
Such great points on match quality, especially stakes being a part of drama. I'm with you at times on the entertainment value of drama vs. quality; if the match finishes at an incredible level, I don't care too much what happened at the start. I think that goes for most people, too -- by the end of the 2012 AO final and even the 2021 RG SF, people had forgotten all about the slow parts. When it comes to ranking GOAT matches, though, I gotta consider both the ups and the downs :). Could be interesting to rank "most entertaining Djokovic-Nadal matches" and see if that contrasts with best.
Love the matches you linked to, particularly Nadal-Thiem. I stayed up until 2:30 am to watch that one and couldn't believe my eyes. Pretty similar flow to Djokovic-Wawrinka AO 2013, really -- loser blows out winner in set one, then the last four sets are all-out war and the winner takes three of those four.
Federer-Roddick is a great one -- I feel like it's more of an "insane" match than a "super high-quality" one, but I haven't watched it all the way through in a while. I'll never forget watching the extended highlights early on in my time as a tennis fan and losing my mind as Federer won those six straight points to rescue the second-set tiebreak. That's a big reason why I became such a big fan of his early on.
Thanks for reading, man, and for the comment -- takes me to those Changeover comment sections.
Great summary of one of the greatest matches. However, I do think looking at statistics may not tell the whole picture for a match, as there have been plenty of other superb matches in which there were more unforced errors than winners, such as the 2005 Rome final between Coria and Nadal and the 2006 Rome final between Nadal and Federer. The eye test matters a lot, and along with the consistency, attack-defense, amongst others. I think a good place to look at the greatness of matches as a whole would be by a player named Waspsting on Men's Tennis Warehouse Forum. Here's some links of theirs. He notes that the 2012 Australian Open final was the toughest of the pairs matches and that very possibly it could be the greatest match ever played. While the match is scrutinized for its long time, the 2009 Madrid semifinal should be as well, as it seems to actually be a highly overrated match by a report. Good to check out, and great report!
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-stats-report-djokovic-vs-nadal-australian-open-final-2012.635927/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-stats-report-djokovic-vs-murray-shanghai-final-2012.684331/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-stats-report-nadal-vs-djokovic-madrid-semi-final-2009.674317/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/match-stats-report-nadal-vs-djokovic-french-open-semi-final-2013.674599/
Thanks John! I hear you on statistics, but I think context can help explain this. Like you said, the 2005 and 2006 Rome finals were phenomenal despite the winners-UFE ratio, two five-setters that started fast and never slowed. But the 2012 Australian Open final simply wasn't a match like that -- Djokovic was poor in the first set, Nadal was poor for most of the next two. If you'd polled the audience after the third set of that match on whether we'd still talk about it 12 years later, I would bet that many would say no. You can see it in the match report you linked to: "Djokovic sluggish [early]"; "Nadal passive [in sets two and three]". The last two sets were unbelievable, but the match was like a very good show with a superb finale -- I rank shows that were superb all the way through a little higher. Thanks for the links -- great statistical breakdowns. I just happen to disagree on the relative greatness of the 2012 AO final. Don't get me wrong, it was great, but the 2018 Wimbledon final had almost all of the drama and much more quality.
Thanks again for reading!
Great response! In the end, all matches are relative to the own viewer's opinions and experience, as some like the contrasting styles or similar ones such as the defensive grueling rallies of Nadal and Djokovic and their countless matches. Would you still consider the 2012 Australian Open final to be the most physical, brutal/ and or athletic match in tennis history?
Absolutely. That match might beat all the others just for sheer insanity at the end -- I couldn't believe what they were doing when they were so tired. It made no sense how the rallies got better as they fatigued. You might have caught it already, but I went longer on that match back in Chapter 9 - https://thegoldenrivalry.substack.com/p/chapter-9-history